Forums · Berserk Gene: Potential return, or retcon out of existence?
The fact that Platinum has items, one of them being a hold item no less, that aren't in the coding of preceeding games makes me want to cling to a sliver of hope that perhaps the Berserk Gene will still exist in HG/SS.
The fact that it otherwise isn't really anything special makes me consider one of the many reasons that it simply won't exist, and if some people are right in that apricorn balls will also be retconned, all the more reason to doubt.
I guess it's just because I'm such a fan of Lickilicky, conveniently the only pokemon this item is remotely viable on. Forsaking a CB for even more strength plus selection freedom would do it a world of good.
The fact that it otherwise isn't really anything special makes me consider one of the many reasons that it simply won't exist, and if some people are right in that apricorn balls will also be retconned, all the more reason to doubt.
I guess it's just because I'm such a fan of Lickilicky, conveniently the only pokemon this item is remotely viable on. Forsaking a CB for even more strength plus selection freedom would do it a world of good.
Lickilicky alone will ensure that this never sees the light of day. Yes, Gamefreak cowers in fear of the mighty Lickilicky.
(Just like Machamp's No Guard makes a Fissure tutor at any point in time an impossibility, unless they go out of their way to make the two incompatible.)
The one question mark on this whole thing is Lickilicky's speed. How long can it sweep? Just like Snorlax, it lacks an instant recovery move, and that's a real problem. Sure, nothing likes taking hits off 590 attack (maybe even stronger if you go with Curse), but even if you have Rest Lickilicky isn't quite as resilient as Snorlax. So can it take repeated abuse without having to Rest the moment it wakes up? My impression is that just like Tyranitar, even with an effective BST that approaches that of Kyogre and Groudon, it would barely fall short of being uber.
With that being said, someone should run calculations, because the Return + Aqua Tail combo, which Snorlax lacks half of, sounds really nasty with that kind of firepower.
Oh yeah, and don't forget Slowking and Purugly. I think they would have a lot of fun with the Berserk Gene as well, especially Purugly since unlike all the other Pokémon with 410 attack and above, it actually has the speed to go with it. And Slowking has Slack Off...
(Just like Machamp's No Guard makes a Fissure tutor at any point in time an impossibility, unless they go out of their way to make the two incompatible.)
The one question mark on this whole thing is Lickilicky's speed. How long can it sweep? Just like Snorlax, it lacks an instant recovery move, and that's a real problem. Sure, nothing likes taking hits off 590 attack (maybe even stronger if you go with Curse), but even if you have Rest Lickilicky isn't quite as resilient as Snorlax. So can it take repeated abuse without having to Rest the moment it wakes up? My impression is that just like Tyranitar, even with an effective BST that approaches that of Kyogre and Groudon, it would barely fall short of being uber.
With that being said, someone should run calculations, because the Return + Aqua Tail combo, which Snorlax lacks half of, sounds really nasty with that kind of firepower.
Oh yeah, and don't forget Slowking and Purugly. I think they would have a lot of fun with the Berserk Gene as well, especially Purugly since unlike all the other Pokémon with 410 attack and above, it actually has the speed to go with it. And Slowking has Slack Off...
I think it's just bad enough to where it's viable, I mean, if anything like staraptor got it, it would be insane, but I think it will be just enough to make licky licky high OU and purugly comfortable OU. In fact, I think Purugly might even see more screen time, think what swellow would be without a toxic orb, that's what purugly is to a greater extent.
Also consider that CB Lickilicky Explosion is potent enough to kill a lot of rocks and steels (and I believe if it isn't a guaranteed OHKO on Skarm, it can do the job.) With a two-stage boost, you wander into OHKOing Rhyperior and other behemoths territory, not that you'd hastily take that route, since Lickilicky's movepool owns.
You bring up Aqua Tail; Licky also has Power Whip and Hammer Arm, which make their way onto some sets and aren't learned by Snorlax. Its above-average bulk on all three of its defensive stats will also mean more here, since as Slow alluded to, Licky can also stat boost itself.
Lastly, I don't think they're THAT put off by such power. No Guard Fissure, yeah, that's a bit over the top. But the fact that they gave a Normal-type Explosion after all this time of withholding it from Snorlax shows that they're making some bold steps (ignoring other massive impacts, like Scizor.) You can argue that Snorlax's huge base attack difference made it viable on Licky and not him, but when you run the damage calcs, you realise it honestly doesn't mean shit. STAB Explosion murders things. Period.
You bring up Aqua Tail; Licky also has Power Whip and Hammer Arm, which make their way onto some sets and aren't learned by Snorlax. Its above-average bulk on all three of its defensive stats will also mean more here, since as Slow alluded to, Licky can also stat boost itself.
Lastly, I don't think they're THAT put off by such power. No Guard Fissure, yeah, that's a bit over the top. But the fact that they gave a Normal-type Explosion after all this time of withholding it from Snorlax shows that they're making some bold steps (ignoring other massive impacts, like Scizor.) You can argue that Snorlax's huge base attack difference made it viable on Licky and not him, but when you run the damage calcs, you realise it honestly doesn't mean shit. STAB Explosion murders things. Period.
Good point.
BTW, the idea of Purugly in OU is very, very amusing... and that's definitely where it would end up. It doesn't have much of a movepool, but does it really need it? Fake Out, Return, Shadow Claw and U-Turn seems to me like it's more than enough, enough not to require taking risks with Hypnosis' accuracy. Unless you at least want something to cripple Steels, that is.
Edit: For fun, some calculations on Berserk Gene Lickilicky Explosion (with +Atk nature).
It does 101.61% - 119.59% on max HP + max def non-Impish Rhyperior. So that Explosion can OHKO every non-Impish Rhyperior without the need for Stealth Rock, and even Impish with max HP and defense has only a 1 in 8 chance of living with Stealth Rock.
Moving on to Regirock... 99.73% - 117.31% on max HP + no Def Regirock, for an insignificant chance of survival (though Stealth Rock is the final nail in the coffin). For those Regirocks who run max defense: 87.09% - 102.47%. Impish lowers that percentage even further, of course.
Steelix is practically identical, though it has 10 less HP, but most of them have a +Def nature. Let's check:
Max HP, no defense, not Impish/Careful: 102.54% - 120.62%
Max HP, max defense, not Impish/Careful: 89.55% - 105.37%
Max HP, no defense, Impish/Careful: 93.22% - 109.89%
Max HP, max defense, Impish/Careful: 81.36% - 96.05%
Let's try something even harder. Can it beat... Probopass (the frailest of the Rock/Steel trio)?
No HP, no defense, neutral nature: 92.72% - 109.20%
Max HP, no defense, neutral nature: 74.69% - 87.96%
No HP, max defense, neutral nature: 77.78% - 91.57%
Bastiodon: No HP, no defense, neutral nature: 81.23% - 95.79%
Well that does it. Let's conclude with the ultimate test: max HP/def Aggron, with +Def nature!
45.64% - 53.49%
In a nutshell: Berserk Gene Lickilicky's Explosion does nothing to ghosts (duh), is a no-go on Bastiodon and Aggron, a rare kill on Probopass, an uncommon kill on Steelix, a common kill on Regirock, and a near-guaranteed kill on Rhyperior. Everything else, from Metagross down? DEAD.
As an added bonus, almost every uber dies as well, except the obvious Giratina and Ghost Arceus, and any Rock/Steel Arceus with max HP, a +Def nature and at least 196 Def EVs. That's without Stealth Rock... even with max EVs it doesn't survive after Stealth Rock.
That, my friends, is the power of the Berserk Gene.
BTW, the idea of Purugly in OU is very, very amusing... and that's definitely where it would end up. It doesn't have much of a movepool, but does it really need it? Fake Out, Return, Shadow Claw and U-Turn seems to me like it's more than enough, enough not to require taking risks with Hypnosis' accuracy. Unless you at least want something to cripple Steels, that is.
Edit: For fun, some calculations on Berserk Gene Lickilicky Explosion (with +Atk nature).
It does 101.61% - 119.59% on max HP + max def non-Impish Rhyperior. So that Explosion can OHKO every non-Impish Rhyperior without the need for Stealth Rock, and even Impish with max HP and defense has only a 1 in 8 chance of living with Stealth Rock.
Moving on to Regirock... 99.73% - 117.31% on max HP + no Def Regirock, for an insignificant chance of survival (though Stealth Rock is the final nail in the coffin). For those Regirocks who run max defense: 87.09% - 102.47%. Impish lowers that percentage even further, of course.
Steelix is practically identical, though it has 10 less HP, but most of them have a +Def nature. Let's check:
Max HP, no defense, not Impish/Careful: 102.54% - 120.62%
Max HP, max defense, not Impish/Careful: 89.55% - 105.37%
Max HP, no defense, Impish/Careful: 93.22% - 109.89%
Max HP, max defense, Impish/Careful: 81.36% - 96.05%
Let's try something even harder. Can it beat... Probopass (the frailest of the Rock/Steel trio)?
No HP, no defense, neutral nature: 92.72% - 109.20%
Max HP, no defense, neutral nature: 74.69% - 87.96%
No HP, max defense, neutral nature: 77.78% - 91.57%
Bastiodon: No HP, no defense, neutral nature: 81.23% - 95.79%
Well that does it. Let's conclude with the ultimate test: max HP/def Aggron, with +Def nature!
45.64% - 53.49%
In a nutshell: Berserk Gene Lickilicky's Explosion does nothing to ghosts (duh), is a no-go on Bastiodon and Aggron, a rare kill on Probopass, an uncommon kill on Steelix, a common kill on Regirock, and a near-guaranteed kill on Rhyperior. Everything else, from Metagross down? DEAD.
As an added bonus, almost every uber dies as well, except the obvious Giratina and Ghost Arceus, and any Rock/Steel Arceus with max HP, a +Def nature and at least 196 Def EVs. That's without Stealth Rock... even with max EVs it doesn't survive after Stealth Rock.
That, my friends, is the power of the Berserk Gene.
God damn I want this item to exist. I want Lickilicky to be more than a Poke that winds up on fun teams or otherwise is something I simply "like." An item like that will give it the boost it needs. It's got the bulk and the moves/options.. now it just needs the muscle.
Honestly, with shit like Salamence around, is an immediate 590 attack with absolutely no drawback such a bad thing? Consider that being a normal, it has no STAB on its moves other than a suicide attack and the awful coverage provided by Body Slam/Return.
When you think of the immediate beneficiaries, this doesn't sound so bad. As you pointed out, Purugly has ass type coverage and unless it learns Brick Break, it'll still be easily walled by omnipresent Heatran & co (though U-Turn with that speed is very much an asset and quasi-negate, I admit.) Lickilicky meanwhile has base 50 speed, which gives things an opportunity to flog it. Its bulk drops noticeably with its attack maxed, and if you take from that, its much less dangerous, at least when compared to pokes that exceed 590 with only a CB. With such a tiny group of Pokes that immensely benefit from the Berserk Gene, which is essentially something for nothing, I think it's feasible.
Honestly, with shit like Salamence around, is an immediate 590 attack with absolutely no drawback such a bad thing? Consider that being a normal, it has no STAB on its moves other than a suicide attack and the awful coverage provided by Body Slam/Return.
When you think of the immediate beneficiaries, this doesn't sound so bad. As you pointed out, Purugly has ass type coverage and unless it learns Brick Break, it'll still be easily walled by omnipresent Heatran & co (though U-Turn with that speed is very much an asset and quasi-negate, I admit.) Lickilicky meanwhile has base 50 speed, which gives things an opportunity to flog it. Its bulk drops noticeably with its attack maxed, and if you take from that, its much less dangerous, at least when compared to pokes that exceed 590 with only a CB. With such a tiny group of Pokes that immensely benefit from the Berserk Gene, which is essentially something for nothing, I think it's feasible.
Knowing Gamefreak, the chances of Berserk Gene being in Heart Gold and Soul Silver are as slim as Flareon getting Flare Blitz in HG/SS.
Edit: Contributing to this conversation; Imagine this.
Slowking @ Berserk Gene
Relaxed/Brave - 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpDef
Own Tempo
- Curse
- Slack Off
- Waterfall
- Zen Headbutt
The only problem with this set is the lack of a status recovery move. Which can easily be fixed by adjusting the moveset like so,
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Curse
- Waterfall/Zen Headbutt
Each moveset has its up and downs. The one that deals with Status gets either walled by Vaporeon or Dark Types. While the regular CurseGene set gets stopped by Toxic or some other form of Status.
Edit: Contributing to this conversation; Imagine this.
Slowking @ Berserk Gene
Relaxed/Brave - 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpDef
Own Tempo
- Curse
- Slack Off
- Waterfall
- Zen Headbutt
The only problem with this set is the lack of a status recovery move. Which can easily be fixed by adjusting the moveset like so,
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Curse
- Waterfall/Zen Headbutt
Each moveset has its up and downs. The one that deals with Status gets either walled by Vaporeon or Dark Types. While the regular CurseGene set gets stopped by Toxic or some other form of Status.
I neglected to mention Slowking from the beginning because I didn't think it'd be a very good user of it. Coverage and typing aside (both of which are potential if not likely problems in themselves) should this thing ever get phazed out or otherwise need to switch, it becomes deadweight.
At least Lickilicky gets to have one last "fuck you" that'll be potent regardless of it not being powered up by Gene.
At least Lickilicky gets to have one last "fuck you" that'll be potent regardless of it not being powered up by Gene.
Someone introduced the idea of Berserk Gene pulling a Light Ball and also doubling special attack. A real stretch, much moreso than just getting the item back, but..
..now THAT would be an item for the Slow duo. Both Slowbro and Slowking would own with that thing, Lickilicky could run really nasty mixed sets (well including Explosion) and Grumpig would be more potent as an all-out attacker.
..now THAT would be an item for the Slow duo. Both Slowbro and Slowking would own with that thing, Lickilicky could run really nasty mixed sets (well including Explosion) and Grumpig would be more potent as an all-out attacker.
Next Page >>