Machoke doesn't get Stone Edge.

And I'd like to delve further into the WP tier in the next coming days; however, this weekend I'm fairly busy so the extent of my arguments will be irrelevant Theorymon.

I guess I just assumed it got it. In that case, it could still use Rock Slide, even though it's less powerful.

Yeah, it seems Stone Edge is just like Hyper Beam and Giga Impact - unless you get it naturally, only your final form can get it. Look at Dugtrio and Primeape for example, among others.

Just for easy reference, here is the entire WP tier as it is atm.

Abra
Aipom
Anorith
Arbok
Ariados
Aron
Azurill
Bagon
Baltoy
Barboach
Bayleef
Beautifly
Beedrill
Beldum
Bellsprout
Bidoof
Bonsly
Bronzor
Budew
Buizel
Bulbasaur
Buneary
Burmy
Cacnea
Carvanha
Cascoon
Castform
Caterpie
Charmander
Charmeleon
Cherrim
Cherubi
Chikorita
Chimchar
Chinchou
Chingling
Clefairy
Cleffa
Combee
Combusken
Corphish
Corsola
Croagunk
Croconaw
Cyndaquil
Delcatty
Delibird
Diglett
Ditto
Doduo
Dragonair
Dratini
Drifloon
Drowzee
Duskull
Dustox
Eevee
Ekans
Electrike
Elekid
Exeggcute
Feebas
Finneon
Flaaffy
Furret
Gabite
Gastly
Geodude
Gible
Glameow
Gloom
Golbat
Goldeen
Graveler
Grimer
Grotle
Grovyle
Growlithe
Gulpin
Happiny
Haunter (Questionable)
Hippopotas (Questionable)
Hoothoot
Hoppip
Horsea
Houndour
Igglybuff
Illumise
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff
Kabuto
Kadabra (Questionable)
Kakuna
Kirlia
Koffing
Krabby
Kricketot
Kricketune
Lairon
Larvitar
Ledian
Ledyba
Lickitung
Lileep
Lombre
Lotad
Loudred
Lumineon
Luvdisc
Luxio
Machoke (Questionable)
Machop
Magby
Magcargo
Magikarp
Magnemite
Makuhita
Mankey
Mantyke
Mareep
Marill
Marshtomp
Masquerain
Mawile
Meditite
Meowth
Metang
Metapod
Mightyena
Mime Jr.
Minun
Monferno (Questionable)
Mudkip
Munchlax
Natu
Nidoran-F
Nidoran-M
Nidorina
Nidorino
Nincada
Nosepass
Numel
Nuzleaf
Oddish
Omanyte
Onix
Pachirasu
Paras
Phanpy
Pichu
Pidgeotto
Pidgey
Pineco
Piplup
Plusle
Poliwag
Poliwhirl
Ponyta
Poochyena
Porygon
Prinplup
Psyduck
Pupitar
Quilava
Ralts
Rattata
Remoraid
Rhyhorn
Riolu
Roselia
Sableye
Sandshrew
Seadra
Seaking
Sealeo
Seedot
Seel
Sentret
Shelgon
Shellder
Shellos
Shieldon
Shinx
Shroomish
Shuppet
Silcoon
Skiploom
Skitty
Skorupi
Slakoth
Slowpoke
Slugma
Smoochum
Snorunt
Snover (Questionable)
Snubbull
Spearow
Spheal
Spinarak
Spinda
Spoink
Squirtle
Stantler
Staravia
Starly
Staryu
Stunky
Sunflora
Sunkern
Surskit
Swablu
Swinub
Taillow
Teddiursa
Tentacool
Togepi
Torchic
Totodile
Trapinch
Treecko
Tropius
Turtwig
Tyrogue
Unown
Venonat
Vibrava
Vigoroth
Volbeat
Voltorb
Vulpix
Wailmer
Wartortle
Weedle
Weepinbell
Whismur
Wigglytuff
Wingull
Wooper
Wormadams
Wurmple
Wynaut (Questionable)
Yanma (Questionable)
Zigzagoon
Zubat

Gabite should be also questionable atm. If not, it should be LP at least.

I haven't found Gabite to be a significant problem yet - it's basically the equivalent of Garchomp in OU, however with a bit less relative Attack and bulkier Steel-types.

As soon as Kadabra and the other questionables end up being banned, I agree that we should also test Gabite in a WP metagame without those pokemon in it, because to be honest, most of the time I was able to take down Gabite by revenge killing it with my Kadabra's Hidden Power Ice.

Alright, just as a quick little reminder, the following Pokemon are definitively banned from Weak Power: Clamperl, Cranidos, Cubone, Dusclops, Electabuzz, Gligar, Magmar,Magneton, Misdreavus, Phione, Pikachu, Piloswine, Porygon2,Rhydon, Scyther, Sneasel, Tangela, and Togetic.  These will never be tested for this tier.


The one Pokemon being considered from that list that is no longer on that list is Murkrow.

Swalot and Cubone will also be brought down from Low Power and considered for testing in Weak Power.

The following Pokemon are questionable and currently undergoing testing: Haunter, Kadabra, Machoke, Monferno, Snover, Hippotas, Wynaut, Sealeo, Gabite and Yanma.

While I agree with most people that, for example, Haunter, Kadabra and Machoke are too much WP, I don't like setting the precedent that we ban so easily. I feel banning should be a serious issue, and we should not take it lightly.  I decided that if we are going to ban something, a minimum of 20 logs should be presented showing how the Pokemon and the team using that Pokemon was too much for the WP tier. 

Therefore, I went ahead and collected 21 logs with a team I made using Yanma, Snover and Sealeo.  This only took 2 days, so I don't want to hear anything about 20 logs being too ridiculous to get. The team went 21-2, with a loss to someone in the beginning when I was first making it (I didn't have Yanma at the point), and a loss to MoI at the end due to some unfortunate luck with MagCargo CHing my Gabite with Overheat and leaving me vulnerable to the rest of his team :(

But the 21 logs I have all show one, definitive point: Yanma is most certainly too powerful for the Weak Power tier. 

I don't want to stetch this page by presenting 21 logs, so when I copy and paste them all to another source, I'll edit this post in with all 21 logs, and you guys can make your own judgments.

But yea, basic summary is that Yanma needs to be moved up, and I have the logs to support my argument.

So basically, here are the Pokemon not directly in the Weak Power list that you are for allowed to use for testing purposes: Haunter, Wynaut, Hippotas, Snover, Murkrow, Swalot and Cubone.

I more or less agree with this. Manaphy should be uber though, hydration rest gives it something no other pokemon can do, a 100% instant recovery move (while in rain). This combined with tail glow and good stats is overpowering. If it becomes OU (or whatever youre calling it) look for a massive increase in rain dance teams. Also wobby in OU still pisses me off, its been like 2 months of testing, everyone I've talked to and who have used it consider it to be uber.

[QUOTE USER="Scofield" TIME="1212467289"]I more or less agree with this. Manaphy should be uber though, hydration rest gives it something no other pokemon can do, a 100% instant recovery move (while in rain). This combined with tail glow and good stats is overpowering. If it becomes OU (or whatever youre calling it) look for a massive increase in rain dance teams. Also wobby in OU still pisses me off, its been like 2 months of testing, everyone I've talked to and who have used it consider it to be uber.[/QUOTE]

Here, in our tier list, is Uber.

I too think that Manaphy warrants testing but Deoxys-D really worries me. It's like a Cresselia that plays much better support but gives up Levitate.

UPDATE!

Haunter, Kadabra and Machoke are now being moved up to LP.

Snover and Hippotas have had little effect on the game so far, so they will be removed from questionable.

The ones to look out for now are Gabite, Monferno and Murkrow.

Well, we started SP tier testing yesterday (will a topic be made for this later?) with testing Manaphy, Latias, Latios (both of these without Soul Dew), and Deoxys-LG (defense) in that tier.

So far, it looks like Manaphy is the biggest threat of those four in the tier, with the Tail Glow set wreaking havoc. The set being run the most is Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot, without even having a need for Rest or Rain Dance, and it's been working fine. Think Mixape, but with Ice Beam instead of HP Ice. Blissey walls this set obviously, but I think it's only a matter of time until Sub/CM Manaphy pops up, or even Sub/Tail Glow. I know NYX has been trying a Rain Dance-based team starring Manaphy, but from what I've seen Manaphy hasn't set up too often; I honestly don't think Manaphy in Rain Dance will be a huge problem in SP, however, the threat is always there, especially since Manaphy can switch in after Rain Dance is used, Tail Glow up and survive a hit with its great defenses, and then OHKO nearly anything with Surf/Hydro Pump. There's always the possibility of Rain Dance/Tail Glow/Rest/Surf Manaphy, which has the potential to be extremely devastating, which certainly warrants further testing.

Deoxys-LG is also a fairly big threat. I've been running the Calm Mind set, for the reason that it outclasses Calm Mind Cresselia with Thunderbolt instead of HP [Electric] or Charge Beam, and Recover over Moonlight. So far, it's been able to set up in about 50% of battles, and when it has, nothing can reliably wall it barring Toxic or a lucky T-wave Bliss. Deoxys-LG can also run Spikes, Stealth Rock, or Knock Off, moves Cresselia wants but cannot have (well, even if it could have it, it's stuck with Resttalking because of how bad Moonlight is.) There's also the Taunt/Agility/Recover/Toxic set that's run in ubers, although I'm not too sure how effective it would be in SP with all of the Steel-types running around. In fact, Taunt in general is a great move for a wall. I'm also interested in seeing if people are going to start packing Counter or Mirror Coat to beat Tyranitar or Gengar respectively.

The Latis are not as big of a threat as you would expect without Soul Dew. Every main set barring the DD Latios set is walled soundly by any Blissey with a status move; of course, I'm just waiting for Refresh or Safeguard Lati@s to pop up, then I'm expecting Steel Types to give it trouble. The DD set is pathetically walled by normal DD set counters (I'm looking at you, Skarm and Zong,) because let's face it, Latios' 306 Atk is nothing special (That's with a positive nature...) Latios' most damaging set is the Calm Mind+Draco Meteor set with Life Orb, but again, this is walled easily by Blissey and a few other special walls. Latias is effectively an inferior Latios, although I'm interested in seeing if someone is going to combine Latios+Blissey to make a pseudo-wall, pseudo-sweeper with Wish support, as I feel this set would be most effective for Latias.

Tyranitar is a great check for all four of these debatable Pokemon, and of course I'm talking the same set that it uses in ubers to beat them; 252 HP, 216 SpDef, 40 Atk, Careful, Stone Edge/Earthquake/Crunch/Pursuit. Crunch will OHKO 4 HP/0 Def Latios or Latias, as will Pursuit if either of them decide to switch out. Tyranitar can switch into anything from them with the exception of Choice Specs HP [Fighting] or Grass Knot and DD Earthquake. Crunch also soundly 2HKOes Deoxys-LG, although it will get 3 attacks on Tyranitar if it has to switch in, meaning LG can set up SR on the switch, paralyze T-tar after the first attack, and either attempt to Recover stall or switch out, leaving the opponent with a crippled counter. Tyranitar's CB Stone Edge does around 75% to 4 HP/0 Def Manaphy, meaning that T-tar cannot counter Manaphy nor revenge kill Manaphy at full health. Manaphy will 2HKO with a Life Orb Tail Glow Surf, or OHKO if the attack is Hydro Pump.

Some other general counters for the Lati@s are Shuckle, who can take any hit easily in Sandstorm and Encore the twins, Knock Off their item, or Toxic them, Bronzong, who can put them to sleep or take off a chunk of health with Gyro Ball, Metagross, who can take any hit aside from DD EQ and OHKO with CB Meteor Mash or simply Pursuit them, the comedy Shedinja mention, as Hidden Power [Fire] isn't too common, Regice, Jirachi.

Wobbuffet can switch into any Deoxys-LG set without Toxic and set up on it (is Wobbuffet banned in this tier?) Gengar can switch into a non-status, non-Psychic attack and scare it away immediately. Umbreon can switch in without fear, thanks to Synchronize, and Trap pass to something else if Deoxys is foolish enough to stay in. Blissey is a safe switch-in to Deoxys-LG as well thanks to Natural Cure and legendary Special Defenses, but Deoxys-LG might just use Blissey as a free set-up if she doesn't have Toxic.

Reliable counters for Manaphy are Shedinja and Roar Vaporeon. Less reliable counters: Blissey, who will beat any set without Rest, Ludicolo, who must pack Energy Ball because Manaphy is so light, and must also be wary of CM Manaphy, and...well...this list is pretty short at the moment.

To summarize: From the SP testing done yesterday, I view Manaphy as a huge threat who is likely to be Untiered, Deoxys-LG as a large-but-not-quite-gamebreaking threat, and Lati@s as a great special sweeper and little more.

Yes, Ruesap, Wobbuffet is banned. I'd like to see Standard Sheddy as a counter to Lati@s. Swords Dance, Focus Sash, max Atk, STAB, Snadow Sneak. It's devastating (or it should) on those pesky Dragons.

EDIT: HAHA DISREGARD WHAT I SAID. I made some calcs and this showed up:

612 Atk (Shedinja with 1 SD) vs 279 Def & 364 HP (max HP/min Def Latias), 40 base power, Super Effective and STAB'd Shadow Sneak: 51.65% - 61.54%

So yeah, forget Sheddy vs Lati@s.

Will this be deleted because aldaron quit?

All the projects will not seize to continue. We will continue to work on them when initiative comes, which will be soon.

What did I quit ?_?

I've simply been inactive for a while

[QUOTE USER="aldaron" TIME="1218345736"]What did I quit ?_?

I've simply been inactive for a while[/QUOTE]


According to Doom, you told #Libelldra you were quitting Pokemon. >_>

Why's absol in low BL's? That thing should be atleast in the high BL. It has a nice sized movepool, the same attack as garchomp, and also has the whole sucker punch+swords dance thing it can do can do tons of damage.

[QUOTE USER="lucky1276" TIME="1220235515"]Why's absol in low BL's? That thing should be atleast in the high BL. It has a nice sized movepool, the same attack as garchomp, and also has the whole sucker punch+swords dance thing it can do can do tons of damage.[/QUOTE]

It's has a goddamn low speed (65 iirc) and low Defenses, and since most teams have a priority move, Absol'll be screwed, with SD or not.