Tiering. A concept familiar to all competitive Pokemon players.

The advent of DP has caused a new "fad" to appear when considering tiering..."objectivity." 

However, most of the site staff and I are not willing to accept a complete move towards objectivity for our tiers. Why? Because there will never be a completely objective method.

Proponents of the centralization arguments still cannot give me a non arbitrary line for "overcentralized," and until they do, there is no fully objective method for determining tiers.

Therefore, we at The Libelldra Forge have decided to push foward and create our own tier list, using the usage statistics from Shoddy Battle as guidelines, not as stringent restrictions to be absolutely adhered to.

We are going to have a 6 tier system, with the potential for a seventh to develop. In brackets I made what the tiers "vaguely represent" in current standards, just so you could get a better idea.

The tiers are as follows:

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Untiered- ARCEUS, Darkrai, Deoxys, Deoxys-A, Dialga, Giratina, Groudon, Kyogre,Ho-Oh, Latias, Latios, Lugia, Mew, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Wobbuffet

As you will notice, we at TLF have decided to allow Arceus in our untiered metagame! Yes yes yes, we recognize that "Arceus isn't a Pokemon." We are going to go ahead and assume it will be allowed in the near future, so we are allowing it now.

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Strong Power (top to middle OU)-Abomasnow, Azelf, Blissey, Breloom, Bronzong, Celebi, Cresselia, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Dragonite, Dugtrio, Dusknoir, Forretress, Garchomp, Gengar, Gliscor, Gyarados, Heatran, Heracross, Hippowdon, Infernape, Jirachi, Lucario, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Manaphy, Metagross, Porygon-Z, Salamence, Skarmory, Starmie, Suicune, Swampert, Togekiss, Tyranitar, Weavile, Yanmega, Zapdos LATIAS LATIOS (WITHOUT SOUL DEW)

Note that we have Manaphy and Deoxys-D on this list, and we will be looking for avid testers of both of these in the metagame.  Latias and Latios without Soul Dew have been added to this list.  You may use either, though only without Soul Dew.

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Fair Power (low OU to middle BL)- Aerodactyl, Ambipom, Alakazam, Arcanine, Articuno, Blaziken, Charizard, Crobat, Donphan, Electivire, Empoleon, Espeon, Feraligatr, Floatzel, Flygon, Gallade, Hariyama, Houndoom, Jolteon, Kingdra, Leafeon, Licklicky, Ludicolo, Machamp, Magmortar, Marowak, Medicham, Mesprit, Miltank, Mismagius, Moltres, Milotic, Ninjask, Porygon2, Raikou, Rampardos, Regice, Regirock, Registeel, Rhyperior, Roserade, Sceptile, Scizor, Shaymin, Shedinja, Slaking, Slowbro, Smeargle, Snorlax, Spiritomb, Staraptor, Tangrowth, Tauros, Tentacruel, Torterra, Typhlosion, Ursaring, Uxie, Vaporeon, Weezing, Zangoose

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Moderate Power (low BL to high UU)-  Absol, Aggron, Altaria, Ampharos, Armaldo, Azumarril, Blastoise, Cacturne, Claydol, Clefable, Cloyster, Cradily, Dewgong, Drapion, Drifblim, Entei, Exeggutor, Froslass, Gardevoir, Gastrodon, Glaceon, Golduck, Gorebyss, Grumpig, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Honchkrow, Huntail, Hypno, Jumpluff, Jynx, Kabutops, Kangaskhan, Lanturn, Lapras, Linoone, Lopunny, Manectric, Mantine, Meganium, Mr. Mime, Muk, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Ninetales, Omastar, Persian, Pikachu, Pinsir, Poliwrath, Primeape, Probopass, Purugly, Qwilfish, Quagsire, Raichu, Rapidash, Regigigas, Relicanth, Sandslash, Scyther, Sharpedo, Shiftry, Shuckle, Slowking, Steelix, Swellow, Toxicroak, Umbreon, Venemoth, Venusaur, Vileplume, Wailord, Walrein

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Low Power (middle UU to high NU)- Banette, Bastiodon, Bellossom, Bibarel, Butterfree, Camerupt, Carnivine, Chimecho, Crawdaunt, Dodrio, Electrode, Exploud, Fearow, Flareon, Girafarig, Glalie, Golem, Granbull, Kingler, Lunatone, Luxray, Noctowl, Octilerry, Parasect, Pelipper, Pidgeot, Politoed, Chatot, Purugly, Raticate, Rotom, Seviper, Skuntank, Solrock, Sudowoodo, Swalot (currently being tested in WP), Torkoal, Vespiquen, Victreebel, Whiscash, Xatu, Yanma, Haunter, Kadabra, Machoke

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Weak Power

Weak Power is the "bottom" tier, and will include fully evolved Pokemon we deem to be outclassed in the upper tiers, and all not fully evolved Pokemon, besides the ones we deem to be too powerful. 

Fully evolved Pokemon in Weak Power -  Ariados, Arbok, Beautifly, Beedrill, Castform, Cherrim, Corsola, Delcatty, Delibird, Ditto, Dustox, Furret, Illumise, Kricketune, Ledian, Lumineon, Luvdisc, Magcargo, Masquerain, Mawile, Mightyena, Pachirasu, Sableye, Seaking, Spinda, Stantler, Sunflora, Tropius, Unown, Volbeat, Wigglytuff, Wormadams, Minun, Plusle, Farfetch'd

Now all NFE Pokemon are allowed except for the following- Chansey, Clamperl, Cranidos, Cubone (testing), Dusclops, Electabuzz, Gligar, Magmar, Magneton, Misdreavus, Murkrow(testing), Phione, Pikachu, Piloswine, Porygon2, Rhydon, Scyther, Sneasel, Tangela, Togetic, Yanma, Haunter, Machoke, Kadabra

Those plus Haunter, Wynaut are all banned from Weak Power.  These last four are what we deem to be questionable, though Haunter will most likely be allowed to be used in this tier following some actual testing.

TESTING POKEMON (the following are "officially" banned from Weak Power but are currently allowed for testing purposes):Wynaut, Swalot, Murkrow, Cubone

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Anyway, since this is a subjective tier determined by the discussions from a small group of competitively intelligent individuals, I recognize that there will be issues with the tiers. If you have a huge problem with something, MAKE SURE TO PROVIDE MULTIPLE LOGS WHERE YOUR POINT IS EMPHASIZED.  Please.

That said, the OU and UU games have been delved in quite a bit, so we have a decent basis to build our tiers from.  The changes that will occur from here on in, however, will be from the discussion gained from battlers on this site battling within the limits of our own tiers.

K, our preliminary tiers are in.

As you'll notice, currenty Chansey, Clamperl, Cranidos, Cubone, Dusclops, Electabuzz, Gligar, Magmar, Magneton, Misdreavus, Murkrow, Phione, Pikachu, Piloswine, Porygon2, Rhydon, Scyther, Sneasel, Tangela, Togetic, Haunter, Wynaut, Snover, and Hippotas do not have a tier that they belong to. As of right now, they are in Limbo.

I pursonally like slowflake's tier list as a base, and if we're going to make a tier list, shouldn't libelldra have its own server on shoddy too?

How are Pokemon who don't break the previous tier, but are threatening in the next tier going to be placed (such as Tentacruel)?

Finefold, plans are already in the works for something like that. As for user Snowflakes tiers, we are using them as a basis, but are predominantly using our knowledge gleaned from over 10 months of competitive battling.

Majestic_star, that's a great question, and one that we do not have a definitive answer for at the moment.

What I personally am thinking is that we will simply make a judgment call.

If you want an example, on another site, Steelix was recently moved down to UU. Steelix obviously does not pose an overwhelming offensive threat in UU, but preliminary tests show that it is nevertheless a centralizing force. While centralization isn't by any means the primary factor behind deciding these tiers, it does get taken into account.

As for your example of Tentacruel, again I am simply speaking for myself, I see it in the Fair Power category. It isn't exactly on par with Blissey, Celebi or Zapdos, but it is on par with the likes of Milotic, Scizor and Donphan. Again, this is very subjective and simply my thoughts.

I am more than willing to hear everyone else's thoughts on these.

Personally, I don't see the need for this anymore. Smogon's list improved tremendously these past few months. It went from looking like it was designed with the help of a dartboard to a very nice portrait of the metagame's trends.

The need is because this is a different tier list than Smogon's.

Notice how they are on a mission for their "objectivity..." without even defining it yet.

This has caused such actions as Wobbuffet to be unbanned into the standard tier, which frankly, has been much disputed by many top battlers.

If you have an issue, you can take it up with me on Irc or through PMs here.

Unless of course you are saying that Smogon's word on competitive battling should be unchallenged?

You clearly haven't read my walls of text where I do anything BUT let their word go unchallenged. (****, I still don't understand what Manaphy's doing in ubers.) Yes, the Wobb unbanning is questionable. But as long as it's just testing, fine. The day they unban it for good they'll have some 'splaining to do.

First off, can you put the Pokemon in alphabetical or numerical order first? It would greatly aid the discussion.

This is a pretty good base for a tier list but I'm kind of iffy about letting Deoxys-D down to SP among other things.

K, well first post updated with alphabetized tiers.

I'd still like someone to make sure that I didn't skip a Pokemon, because during the discussions there were a few instances of constant cut and pasting, lol.

@Slowflake, check their site, Wobbuffet is no longer Uber. They say "testing," but it is currently OU according to them.

Also, while they may do a good job of "mapping" the metagame, remember they only have 3 real metagames by their tier list: Ubers, OU and UU.

Naturally, this means that all those BL Pokemon are usually rarely seen in competitive (tournament) play, or those Pokemon not standard in UU are not seen in competitive play.

With this 6 tier system we actually hope to establish 6 metagames, one that emphasizes the use of a variety of Pokemon competitively. We essentially "balancing BL" and "creating NU," while also legitimizing NFEs. That is why we felt it necessary to go ahead with the Tier plan.

@Majestic Star, well, I alphabetized it for you ;D

I know there will be issues with Deoxys-D and Manaphy in SP, but we decided we want to test both out in standard play.

Now, for the sake of discussion, I'll outline a few of my concerns with the current list:

1.) Abomasnow in SP- I am not saying it shouldn't be in SP, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be a problem at all in FP, and would possibly help to diversify our competitive game. SP is clearly Sand dominated and the lower tiers are more Rain dominated, so having Hail preside in FP could be interesting.

2.) Snorlax, Scizor, Kingdra, Gallade, Roserade, Vaporeon in FP- I think plenty of "theorymon" debates could be made for them to be moved up to SP, especially Snorlax. Please everyone keep an eye on these 6 when testing in the FP tier.

3.) Mawile and Arbok in WP- I have used both in competitive UU, and both have done decently. Might be too powerful for the bottom tier.

4.) Obviously those NFEs undecided. I can pretty confidently put Pikachu, Scyther, and Clamperl in DP, but the others I am not sure about. I think all would be too much for WP, but do we really want to se them in LP and DP?

Discuss.

First off: Yes! yes! Arceus.

Secondly: from a first glance the major tiers look fine. The first thing I noticed however, before looking at Aldraon's last post is the Abomasnow really doesn't belong there. Abomasnow made it to the OU tier because, well, he was overused. In our case, however, he really doesn't pack as much power, comparitively, to be considered 'strong'. Sure it can be unpredictable at times, and sure its a weather starter, but can you really compare it to TTar, any of the sprites or the 600 club?
I also quite like the prospect of a Hail dominated 3rd tier.

One thing I do notice is Machamp in a secondary tier. That much power, No Guard and STAB attacks (it can still be unpredictable with Resttalking sets and CB sets)? It should most definitely be SP.

As for the next point, I feel that Kingdra has a fairly predictable moveset, and half the time needs Rain to function above other SP's. Roserade works very well in OU and SP as a T-Spiker. I've never actually used one myself, only watched games with them, but perhaps Tentacruel & Forry both already fit this role with better Defences on different sides. Take your pick, both are immune to opponent Toxic Spikes and both can get rid of them, unlike Rosie. Tentacruel for a higher tier perhaps?

Vaporeon is usually a secondary Wish-Passer to both Jirachi and Blissey (which apparently can only be Calm from now on), and a Gyara counter to an extent, whilst Scizor has the power but isn't as popular (hence its BL status) as a BP-er & standard SD Sweeper. Other than his typing and BPing he is severely outclassed by Heracross (who can also carry Bulk-Up to be defensive). Thus those three are debatable.
Snorlax and Gallade on the other hand nullify many threats in the SP tier--I've always been a proponent of Gallade use in OU, taking out everything that walls him with a CB. Snorlax on the other hand keeps Starmie in check, helping out both Gyarados and Infernape. I think both of them deserve SP status.

I can't say much on the weaker tiers because I hardly have the experience that other battlers here have, but I do believe that Absol is broken for the DP tier, thouigh I don't know how it would fare in FP. It's STAB, Sucker punch, Psycho Cut, stat-upping and crithax are all pretty amazing in UU, but its lack of coverage keeps it where it is.

Last of all the pixies, they all work in different ways (Mesprit is a godsend for team support, and Uxie is Cresselia with a better Electric attack traded inf or less defences). I'm not proposing anything, I just want discussion on the subject.

Well, that's my two cents. Hopefully there'll be more to come.

I don't like Arceus, even in ubers regardless if it's a real pokemon or not, but apparently we'll be discussing this at another time.

Moving on. Manaphy warrents more testing in OU in my opinion, but after making a few MDWL teams and battling others, I'm really thinking it's still good enough to be banned.

Deoxys-D isn't even a question. Speed is considered widely to be the "weakest" form, and even that tears up OU. Deoxys-D adds a strong mixed wall to what has all ready become a stallish metagame. Deoxys-D can be compared to Cresselia in many ways. However, Deoxys-D adds Spikes, Knock Off, Cosmic Power, Taunt and Recover.

I really wouldn't mind moving Deoxys-S back up to untiered either, but I don't want to type up that arguement again.

Lower tiers I don't have enough experience in to really give a good opinion about them, but from looking through it, Fair Power seems to be good, though I'm unsure about a couple of pokemon. Zangoose and Shedinja seem like they could be moved down to me.

But considring that Ubers is not a definitive metagame in the same that OU is, Arceus fits in just fine. Since UTs and Ubers are all things that are 'uncounterable' in the SP tiers, you cant't ban Arky just because he leaves the other 'broken' pokemon in the dust. Sure he overcentralises Ubers, but it'd be kind of stupid to make another tier just for Arceus users.

I agree with most of SNX7's sentiments, but I'd still like to test Deoxys-D and Manaphy out, if just to finally lay to rest their question marks.

Zangoose and Shedinja are questionable, as well.

Perhaps some battling is order to determine definitively?

Hmmm. Since I haven't battle so much yet, it's hard for me to justify the placement of most Pokemon. But Alakazam has been pretty useful for me, pretty much netting me the most kills in most of my battles. It may not have the defenses to take Pursuits etc from SP Pokemon, but would Alakazam dominate too much in FP? This is considering I use a LO-Zam. Looking at the FP tier, Zam can pretty much outspeed a lot of them and OKHO with something.

I also agree with the points made on Abomasnow, since regardless of usage, we're talking about what Abomasnow can actually contribute to a team. Besides weather support, other Pokemon can outclass Abomasnow in power and defensive capability.

I noticed that I like using most Pokemon from the FP tier, so maybe I could do some of my own testing on them and post back if I have any significant observations.

I agree with he Zangoose mention. It's FP while Toxicroak, Umbreon and Azumarril are in a lower tier.

I've been having some "Weak Power battles" against Aldaron, Ominous Doom, Masterofidiots and BlazingYoshiX today and I can say that, at the moment, Haunter doesn't seem to be that much of a problem. My Sleep Talk/Rest/Calm Mind/Dark Pulse Sableye took down a Hypnosis variant (although I admit, I got lucky with a 33% chance of that happening), and Wigglytuff seems to be able to handle most Haunter well in general too.

Kadabra allows for an easy revenge kill against non-Scarf variants. On top of that, Haunter can't really deal well with the plethora of Steel pokemon present in the Weak Power metagame at the moment, aside from inflicting status upon them with either Will-O-Wisp or Hypnosis. Haunter doesn't get Focus Blast after all.

Some random other WP pokemon I wanted to mention here:
Gabite seems to be strong, but not too strong to warrant a place in a higher tier. Bronzor is an excellent wall, and with Hidden Power Ice, it packs quite a counterpunch. Most of the time, it's pretty easy to just play around it.

Metang is another pretty powerful pokemon, but it suffers from the great amount of Earthquakers that have a spot on teams in this metagame.

Lumineon is incredibly powerful, using Rain Dance and Surf, but again, I don't feel the need to move this up one tier, because it can still be beaten with relative ease. Mantyke is a decent counter to non HP Electric variants, and Chinchou beats the non HP Ground or HP Grass ones.

I don't quite have an opinion on Hippotas yet. The Stockpile + Slack Off variants are very solid defenders, but I haven't tried any pokemon with Taunt in this tier yet, which may prove to be a solid counter. Taunt Koffing could be considered. What concerns me more though, is the automated Sandstorm, which makes Gabite even more of a threat than it already is (I've seen Aldaron's Mawile miss twice in a row with a Swords Dance boosted Ice Punch as a result of this), so this really needs more discussion and testing.

I'll add more stuff when I've done some more battles.

I've done some testing with some Pokemon in WP and I say:


Gabite- Scarf variation is much like ScarfChomp, but less powerful and speedy; yet too powerful for WP.

Magneton- I haven't done any testing with this, but I can assure that it gives trouble even to its father Magnezone and cousin Heatran with Specs and HP Ground.

Yanma- Yes, not on the list, but it is just like Yanmega: Protect, Hypnosis and rape. This and Speed Boost to get it started.

Haunter- Shadow Ball, Hypnosis and Thunderbolt coming from base 115 SpAtk and 95 Speed hurts like the cold hard hell.

Hippopotas- Stockpile + Slack Off combo is hard to pull off, but once it's done, you're going to have a hard time.

To elaborate on my previous post, there are still quite a few NFE pokemon in the WP tier that need to be discussed before they're placed.

Machoke - This thing has an incredibly powerful Close Combat attack that, when CB'd, does the following damage to Bronzor, one of the best walls available in the WP environment imo:

448 Atk vs 298 Def & 318 HP (120 Base Power): 195 - 229 (61.32% - 72.01%)

Aside from that, it has things like DynamicPunch, Stone Edge and Bulk Up that could make it even more effective than it already is. Psychic pokemon are somewhat scarce in this environment (Kadabra is really the only offensive one that I have encountered so far, and he takes 135.14% - 159.46% damage from a CB'd Close Combat on the switch. Even Life Orb would guarantee the OHKO), so there aren't that many viable walls to counter it effectively. There's always the Flying types, but they can still be met with Stone Edge. Haunter would be able to easily come in on a predicted Close Combat, but I've begun to have my doubts if WP is the right tier for him as well.

Another pokemon that has access to Close Combat, with amazing stats and an even better movepool to complement it, is Monferno. Again, Close Combat hurts a lot of things very hard - not as hard as Machoke's, but hard. Gabite may be mentioned as a potential "counter", as it outspeeds Monferno and OHKOs it with Earthquake, but just to show how strong Monferno really is, look at this: an Adamant Monferno's Close Combat, boosted by a Life Orb, guaranteedly OHKOs a 4 HP/no Def Gabite (it takes 101.80% - 120.14% damage). Another potential counter would be Marshtomp, but even a max HP/max Def one is 2HKOd by the same Adamant Monferno holding a Life Orb (it takes 51.74% - 61.34% damage per turn). Again, Haunter could come in, deal with the incoming Close Combat without taking any damage, outspeed Monferno and put it to sleep with Hypnosis (or go for the kill if it's taken previous damage, or if its defenses have been lowered by a previous Close Combat). But like I said, Haunter is probably being moved up one tier anyway. Even if it isn't, I think in creating the lower tiers, we shouldn't put our standards this high; sure, Haunter may be a counter (provided you predict correctly), but Haunter is one of the very best pokemon to be allowed (at the moment, for testing purposes) in this tier, so really, we shouldn't place pokemon in this tier based on a comparison between said pokemon and Haunter.

We do have access to a lot of intimidators though (Arbok, Mightyena, Mawile, Masquerain and perhaps even more that I'm forgetting right now), but as you may notice already, both Mightyena and Mawile are weak to Close Combat anyway, so they can't come in and expect to live through an attack like that. Arbok resists Close Combat, but Monferno could just as easily pack a mixed set utilizing its great movepool. Fire Blast still dents it pretty badly (74.43% - 87.40% damage, assuming a Neutral natured Monferno with "only" 128 SpAtk EVs). Masquerain won't like being hit by a super effective, STABed, 120 base power attack either.

Kadabra is another pokemon I'm unsure about at the moment. It has 105 base Speed, making it one of the fastest pokemon around. Supported by an impressing 120 base SpAtk stat and a very decent movepool, he's quite a serious threat. The plethora of Steel pokemon, especially Metang, prevent him from sweeping effectively in the early stages of battles (Kadabra doesn't get Focus Blast yet). It could run a Hidden Power Fire set, but I think most players will value Hidden Power Ice more, as it allows Kadabra to be one of the few effective Gabite revenge killers.
Late game, Kadabra is a serious beast (so far, I've pulled off multiple succesful late game sweeps with this pokemon) that can really rip teams apart. Calm Mind can be a nice fourth move if you think three offensive moves are enough to provide you with enough coverage, as Kadabra will force a nice amount of switches, just by showing its spoon. Bronzor walls its attacks (again, provided it's not using Hidden Power Fire), but can't do much in return aside from inflicting a status effect upon him (at which point Synchronize will punish Bronzor). Marshtomp is easily OKHOd by Energy Ball.

There are still quite a few pokemon that can effectively stop Kadabra in its tracks though; Sableye takes no damage from Psychic, and once it gets a Calm Mind in, Kadabra's other attacks will do very small amounts of damage as well. Mightyena can come in on Psychic and threaten it directly with Crunch or Sucker Punch (probably the latter).

I'm not sure what should be done with Kadabra yet, but I do recognize it as a severe threat in this metagame, with only a handful of effective counters.

Haunter shares a lot of similarities with Kadabra, but has more immunities than it. It also has the ability to pack two decent STAB moves (Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb) and has its own status inflicting moves in Hypnosis and Will-O-Wisp, making him capable of dealing with offensive threats like Gabite without even having to carry Hidden Power Ice. That, in turn, allows it to use a different Hidden Power, such as Fire or Fighting. Combine that with his well above average sweeping stats and you'll notice that you're looking at an amazing pokemon, given the rest of this tier.

Furthermore:
[quote]
3.) Mawile and Arbok in WP- I have used both in competitive UU, and both have done decently. Might be too powerful for the bottom tier.[/quote]

In my opinion, Mawile and Arbok are nowhere near too powerful for this tier. Mawile hasn't really done anything in all the battles I've faced it, and Arbok, albeit a powerful pokemon, is not that hard to deal with.

[quote]
Hippopotas- Stockpile + Slack Off combo is hard to pull off, but once it's done, you're going to have a hard time.[/quote]

With all the potential Taunters in this metagame, I think we should wait and see how they fare against a set utilizing those two moves. I've found variants other than the one mentioned in this quote not that hard to deal with, so once you'd shut down a combination of those moves with Taunt, I would expect Hippopotas to be less of a problem than it may seem now. To be honest, Koffing needs to be used more. Levitate grants it an immunity to Earthquake, plus it can use Taunt.

EDIT: It even gets Haze if you prefer "curing" over "preventing".

There are a few things I have noticed as well.

For one, I have run a very effective combo of Mawile and Golbat. Fire moves are far and few in the WP metagame (bar Macargo, which I am the only one to run) and Monferno. Mawile's other weaknesses of Fighting and Ground are covered very nicely by Golbat. I attempt to set up Sword Dance and Baton Pass it to Golbat. From there on, CB Golbat's Brave Bird 2HKOs everything in the metagame with an SD. I'm not even kidding. The ridiculous amount of damage it does is insane.

Another thing I've noticed is that even though Hippopotas isn't broken, Sandstream does a major toll to the whole WP metagame. Gabite gets a big boost. Macargo becomes one of the best tanks in the metagame. It can take Outrages from Garchomp, can survive attacks from Kadabra. It's been really efficient for me.

My opinion on Haunter is that it's very, very good in this metagame. Hypnosis is a great asset, Destiny Bond with its speed is great. In the matches I faced against Fantasty with his Sableye, he got really lucky in terms of hitting Dark Pulse, as it's an easy 2HKO. It pretty much is guaranteed 2 kills a game in the rest of my matches