On GameFAQs, there is/was a debate going on in this topic about whether Pokemon should be tiered by power or usage. Obviously, the recent tier list uses usage for OU (check the weighted Shoddy stats). While this is good for an overall picture, things on the low side of usage that are not up to snuff with the standards (Umbreon, Jolteon) get lumped in while Pogeys that certainly can compete with them (Aerodactyl, Raikou) are not, making the whole tier look a bit skewed. Tiering by power, however, is not always representative of the metagame, since Pokemon that were previously much lower (Tentacruel, Roserade) have new strategies developed for them that give them ways to compete with the standards.

So yeah, thoughts on this and stuff.

I don't see why people are getting all fed up over a simple BL/OU distinction. Pokemon in both classes are allowed in the same metagame. Why complain? If your favorite Pokemon is designated a BL and you wish it were OU, just battle with it more often (and win of course). Impact the metagame directly and watch the tiers change if you're successful. (FYI I spammed Raikou on my Shoddy teams last month and it moved up 8-9 spots in the usage statistics and I don't even Shoddy that often). For people who are fans of an UU Pokemon, same dealio. Use it and use it well on Shoddy and perhaps it will crack into OU.

The literal meaning of OU implies usage. And power is something that is difficult to completely isolate and focus on because the metagame is still fresh (i.e. not everything has been figured out yet). So usage has to be involved in tier making IMO. Power is only useful in keeping things that break a particular metagame out.

Things that seem to fit both the OU and UU metagame like Tentacruel is a tough call though. It probably isn't broken in UU but its popularity pushes it into OU. I suppose if it's agreed beforehand, allowing the use of Tenta in UU matches despite its popularity wouldn't be too bad except it goes against one of the finer points of UU: to use things that aren't seen often.

I understand about how OU/BL is popularity based, but I still think that breaking out of UU should be based on if it's deemed too good, not how it does in OU. Tentacruel should stay UU if it's not broken in UU.

Well, the Smogon tiers are determined with the OU metagame in mind first. Frankly, I think some of the people deciding things couldn't care less about UU.

If TLF were to come up with a tier system, that wouldn't be a bad way to go since UU pokes are allowed in the OU metagame anyway. The big difference is, the rules for what is what might be even more confusing.

Yeah, but UU is pretty fun and a nice break from OU, and it's generally balanced as is, so they really should decide things with UU in mind too, since it's not like declaring something as either BL or UU has any real effect on OU.

Power. POWER POWER POWER. I can't stress this enough. Not only because of the lower metagames, either. Yeah, I know it's overUSED and underUSED, but theoretically the better a Pokémon is, the more it should be used. However, it's not always the case.

We should all get on the chatroom someday and debate every Pokémon out there, making our own list. Of course, the logistics would be too complicated and impractical, but it would be a fun thing to do if it were to ever happen.

May I ask why we have BL? If it is just the Ubers of UU, then can't we just have 4 teirs? Uber, OU, UU, NU. I dont really like those names, cant we make better ones?

Edit: just thought of something, shouldn't teirs be based off how well they do when battling with the game as opposed to on shoddy? Cause im pretty sure that quite a few pokemon (Jolteon, raikou) wouldnt be as high if they didnt get to choose their hidden power

Weren't we doing a tier list here? I think it was going from Tier 6 to Tier 1...

Anyways, Tiers should be based on power. Just because it's ----Used, doesn't mean it has to be based on usage. Power is the thing that matters.

Actually, I brought up the Hidden Power thing on GameFAQs quite some time ago, and no one seemed too concerned. But yeah, Jolteon is already pretty weak nowadays, and a UU tiering might actually be justified if we take away Hidden Power.

And now that I think of it, the fact that Smogon's list is based on usage makes a lot of sense. People just love Eeveelutions. Five out of seven (or even six, if Flareon ends up in UU) end up one tier too high­. See where I'm going?

It is true that Eeveelutions are loved. But Smogon should change to another type of tier ranking. ----used isn't right. Pokémon should be based on power, not usage. And Flareon isn't used, but based on power it would get to BL. And there should be two tier lists: one for Shoddy and another for Wi-Fi.

NOTE: I'm going to work on a tier list, but later. I have too much work. And I'm not a good worker(:P).

Smogon's tier lists confuse me the more they update it.

I'm a Hail team user and I use Abomasnow, but in my mind Aboma's firmly a BL Pokemon. Look at those stats. >_> And yet it's an OU on Smogon's tier list...

And Abomasnow has a massive 4x weakness to Fire. That's its problem. We need to do our own tier list.

[QUOTE USER="Slowflake" TIME="1199824287"]Power. POWER POWER POWER. I can't stress this enough. Not only because of the lower metagames, either. Yeah, I know it's overUSED and underUSED, but theoretically the better a Pokémon is, the more it should be used. However, it's not always the case.

We should all get on the chatroom someday and debate every Pokémon out there, making our own list. Of course, the logistics would be too complicated and impractical, but it would be a fun thing to do if it were to ever happen.[/QUOTE]

I agree we should make our own tier list. On IRC, it would be a lot better, since many members can debate it.

EDIT: We could use it on our Shoddy Server, if it is still online. But it isn't commonly used, so...

A reason why I sorta like it is because of use of Shoddy statistics.

Here is an example.

If all of a sudden people started using Arcanine on every team, people would notice.

If he was used a ton, people would take notice or stock of that fact right there. Therefore when making teams they'll make sure they have some sort of counter at lease because of the fact he is so overused. He certainly makes the OU tier notice him, and if he is on every team he has full right to be in OU just because he fills in that role. He overcentralizes a tier because of the fact he is used so much.

It's kind of the same issue with Abomasnow. He is used a ton, barring crappy typing, and stats, the sole reason is that he is "overused", he fills in that role perfectly, as people see him a ton, and usually think of him.

Now people will say, both examples I listed were crappy. They are easy to counter in their own right, and therefore doesn't matter.

But the thing is if people started using a bunch of different pokemon more often, people have to take that into account that they tier they are seeing is different and that there are new things to keep track of that are OU.

Also being in the BL tier isn't bad in the first place too. OU and BL are in the same tier technically. If you separate the two soley on the usuablity rate then it gives a better idea of what serparates them more. Using this idea that they have kind of changes the names more too though.

Also, another example is Aerodactyl, he is now in BL because of usage stats too. It's fully right that if he is barely being used anymore, even though he is a great pokemon, on the average team, sightings of him are scarce, so in some definition, he isn't much of a threat to the metagame as the old definition of a tier might call it.

I always thought it was power as Mawile isn't going to compete well in he current OU anytime soon, but the current separation of the OU tier as a whole (BL and OU), is an interesting direction that they are taking.

What I am trying to say is that everything in OU and BL have the ability to compete in the same tier. The only thing that should make the two different is how much you see one another how often. OU's earn that right because they are so often seen and make that much of a difference, while BL's are still capable of of a lot, it's the fact that they are way more rare than OU's that makes the difference in the end. Blissey for one earns the right for OU, the fact that it is an amazing poke, and the fact that everyone uses it so you have to be aware of it being used so much.

What I am saying is shaky, and might've came out wrong, but I hope you get what I am saying.
Just a minor thought I had.[I]

Whoa, wait a second. Flareon's power netting it a BL ranking? Yeah, because Fire Fang is SO threatening off 130 base attack. Flareon's NU by usage, and NU by power. The suggestion of Flareon belonging on the same power tier as Magmortar, Blaziken, Charizard, Ninetales, Moltres, Entei and Arcanine is a joke. Plain and simple. Heck, even the Rapidashes, Camerupts, Typhlosions and Houndooms of this world constantly crack jokes about how pitiful Flareon is.

Now, on to something else. I'd genuinely like more output on the matter of whether we should make our own tier list or not. Personally, I like the idea. Not only would it provide a much-needed power-based alternative to the usage-based Smogon list, but it might also help get the word out about Libelldra as a whole if done right. I think everyone agrees we need to expand our membership some, after all (although the risk is, of course, that we could end up with GameFAQs and Marriland n00bs in the process).

So if we were to make a tier list, I see three ways of doing it, because the last thing we need is a tier list that's a one-man effort.

1. We set a time and date on IRC, and debate every single Pokémon from Venusaur all the way to Arceus. Problems: too time-consuming, and not everyone can be available at a given time and date.

2. One or two people make a "gimme" list of all the easy-to-tier Pokémon, with all the harder cases in another list. We discuss the "gimme" list on the forums for a while, so if there are common objections among the gimmes they can be moved to the debated list. Afterwards, we do #1, except only with the debated Pokés. Saves a lot of time, but once again not everyone can be present for the debate.

3. Each person who'd like to get involved tiers all the Pokémon on their own, then the lists are PMed to a designated user who tallies the results. The tier with the most votes for a given Pokémon wins. Alternatively, we can go forward with #1 for the close calls, which is probably a better idea.

Additionally, there are two extra issues. First is terminology. If we go forward, maybe canning the old one might be for the better. But then again, you don't do away with tradition as easily as it sounds, since OU, BL and UU have been around as long as the game itself, and NU since R/S came out. Second, how many non-uber tiers? Usually most tier lists have four, but I've been pushing for five for a long time - and preaching in the desert, it seems. Every time I attempt to tier Pokémon, I come to the conclusion it would be a lot easier with five. Ranking 250 Pokémon in only four tiers kinda makes them lose their meaning a bit. A far cry from SSBM, if I may say so myself.

Yeah, so maybe I'm thinking forward a little too much, but that never hurt anybody, right?

[QUOTE USER="Truthiness" TIME="1199860292"]What I am trying to say is that everything in OU and BL have the ability to compete in the same tier. The only thing that should make the two different is how much you see one another how often. OU's earn that right because they are so often seen and make that much of a difference, while BL's are still capable of of a lot, it's the fact that they are way more rare than OU's that makes the difference in the end. Blissey for one earns the right for OU, the fact that it is an amazing poke, and the fact that everyone uses it so you have to be aware of it being used so much.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. The "power" fanatics can lump OU and BL into one tier if they so choose. The distinction between the two is to let people who care about usage know what's common in the current metagame. What's wrong about that? The way their tier system is set up gives you more information than just power. Ignore the usage info if you hate it so much.

And I support the creation of a tier system here. If only to generate more discussion on an otherwise quiet site. <_<

I don't think it's as easy a distinction to just say, "Tiers should be determined by usage" or "Tiers should be determined by power." The way I figure it, it's a combination of the two, with usage becoming more important when discussing BL/OU.

I think the terms OU, BL, UU, and NU are misleading. I much prefer the SSBM-style designations of Top tier, High tier, middle tier, and so on down the line. Calling things OU automatically leans toward tiers being solely usage-based, which is misleading. The Smash tiering system, however, it exclusively power-driven, which makes sense. Every character can be used at the highest level of play, but some are obviously more powerful than others. It's the same as Pokemon. At least, it is until you get up to BL/OU, where it becomes more difficult.

First of all, NU. NU are the Pokemon that can't compete in UU. NU:UU :: UU:OU. Simple as that. This is equivalent to Bottom Tier in SSBM. They aren't Never Used, they are just Never Used in OU. Silly. This is a balanced tier.

UU Pokemon are those that can't compete viably in OU. Every Pokemon in this tier breaks the tier below it in one way or another, and so they are used here. This is a balanced tier.

BL/OU. This is the same tier, yes. You can think of it like a sports team, where you have a starting lineup and then a number of players (often more than in the starting lineup) on the bench. These bench players get to play, but not as often as the starters, and often in more specific situations. These players will not go lower than BL because of their abilities (power), but with may gain a place in the starting lineup if they are used often enough (usage). BL is not a balanced tier, but OU is.

Ok. So. NU and UU should be decided on power, as should the whole of BL/OU. The only distinction where usage should be a real factor should be in separating Pokemon into BL or OU. Again, I feel like the moniker "Over-Used" is misleading (and Borderline, but to a lesser extent).

So it breaks down like this: A lot of people are debating individual Pokemon in BL that should be in OU. It doesn't make sense to me. Does Sceptile break UU? Yes. It does. It it powerful enough to function in OU? Most certainly. Is is used as much as something like Garchomp (or really any classic OU)? No. Therefore, it goes to Borderline.

The thing is, if we make a whole new tier list with a different terminology, we might have a metagame for each tier, including the equivalent of a BL metagame.

So it breaks down like this: A lot of people are debating individual Pokemon in BL that should be in OU. It doesn't make sense to me. Does Sceptile break UU? Yes. It does. It it powerful enough to function in OU? Most certainly. Is is used as much as something like Garchomp (or really any classic OU)? No. Therefore, it goes to Borderline.

And that, THAT is why I'm pushing for more tiers. The gap between the weak and the strong is insane, and taking that gap and splitting it in four still makes large chunks, hence the gap in use between high OUs like Garchomp and low ones like Sceptile. With five tiers you'd put Sceptile in the second one and no one would argue (I think).

I support Slowflake's ideas of making 5 power based tiers, and would be up for any method of devising our own tier list.

The question is, how does more tiers impact Pokemon selection by the average battler? I'm sure the majority of players choose mainly OU Pokemon for OU teams (and fewer BL/UU Pokemon).

So with more tiers, would each tier becomes less varied if most people don't use "underpowered" Pokemon in a higher tier of play?